The East is not all that either. But we understand that war sucks and there should be another way. A response to Robert Wu's "The end of West's ideological monotony".
I value your perspective and am glad that you like where you live. Please be assured that many of us here in the US don’t like the way the news is presented either as sensationalistic. Many did not condone the Iraq invasion (huge marches against it)and the vast majority of Americans took Covid seriously and followed precautions. In any country there will be a split of opinions and the government actions will not always represent the broader will of the people. Human nature is varied and yet predictable. There’s a lot of debate here that might not be visible from afar or in those online friends you sadly lost. That said, it seems a true positive that you see the value in where you live rather than ascribing too much hope to somewhere further away. Reading your insights is always interesting!
I hope that I didn't convey the idea that "all" people in the West are like this. Usually I will include a caveat but I forgot this time around. Like I said my brain is melted today and prob not as eloquent as it should be 😅
I guess my sincerest hope with this newsletter is that I can somehow reach out to those caught in the Coliseum and remind them of what's truly important, and to not put their hopes in people who claim to have all the answers. And that the world doesn't have to have bad guys to function, if that makes any sense.
That 100% makes sense! It is your personal ethics that is why I value your insights on the world… and on my increasingly long To Watch links folder haha 💖
And I don’t want to downplay how distressing it is from a Westerners perspective when so many people here in the US do believe the propaganda you mention around vilifying Islam due to post 9/11 propaganda or attacking Asian Americans due to weird beliefs about Covid. That’s incredibly distressing and real. It’s something we have to work on. Our US legacy news sources and local news are being decimated which has me worried that propaganda and false news will travel faster. On the other hand, there seems to be the beginnings of smaller online journalistic ventures, some here on Substack that I am hopeful about. As you point out, obtaining information from a variety of global sources is probably the best option to keep one’s mind open
Yes that's the best we can do now. Heck I even watch Tucker Carlson once in a while. Bracing! 🤣
I usually limit my media news diet to less "shouty", "drama queen" sources. The moment they start labelling people - Nazis, woke whatever, I check out. I listen to the soft voice ones, the ones who don't shout or be all dramatic, who are able to stay measured in the face of rants and ignorant remarks. I tend to also favour South East Asian thinkers because we have grown up with the idea of understanding East and West and also always believing that diplomacy is the best way.
“In Malaysia, we have news channels in English, Malay, Chinese, and Indian. So, we have the perspectives of the West but we also have perspectives from China, India, South-East Asia and the Muslim world.” That’s such a good point. So in other words, we have to decide for ourselves what to think 😂 When I read some western mainstream news outlets, I feel like I’m guided passively to being told what to think (like a teacher asking leading questions to guide the student towards the correct answer) and it makes my thinking so sluggish that I usually just read the headlines and stop there.
Lol tell me about it! And we've learned so early not to trust what the news media was telling us. We learned how to read between the lines and identify propaganda quickly. In a way all that cognitive training has been good for us!
I appreciate hearing your perspective. I was born in the US but in my twenties I had the joy of teaching in China. I have often said that in China people understood that the news consisted of propaganda. In fact, even in our city in China they invited some of us foreign teachers to meet with some officials at a hotel. But they then took pictures and you can imagine our surprise when the newspaper had an article about foreign investors meeting with officials, and our pictures and names were used to promote this false narrative. But we had a good laugh. Most Americans struggle to find trustworthy news sources. Many of us are appalled at the current situation. We have primarily propaganda nowadays in the US media, and it’s tragic. They have succeeded in distracting and polarizing people severely and as you said, they fail to deal with the real issues facing our country and the global community. I am glad you’re writing. I also read Robert Wu’s article. While I see some things differently, his perspective is so needed and valuable. I remember returning home after working in China and seeing my hone country with very different eyes. You made some really valid points. Thanks!
I commented early and enjoyed the brief convo, but I’m back because my first thought had been to say not to worry too much about everyone in the West’s cognitive abilities around nuance, etc. But since then your point about the benefits of living in a culture where you have a variety of news sources from all over the globe and that Malaysians are generally savvy about journalism vs propaganda, perspectives and bias, etc. as the actual point of the post has been what I’m thinking about. What you are describing ought to be taught in schools in the country I live in (and every country). I’ve heard anecdotally that some do. Had to come back to say that your actual point was not lost!
I wouldn't say ALL Malaysians are savvy. Echo chambers still exist. For example, the Malays may want to only read Malay papers which has their POV, and the Chinese-educated Chinese will read the Chinese papers etc.
I'm actually a bit of an outlier due to my experience in journalism. I worked at the newsdesk and was one of the paper's world news editors for many years and had access to all wires from around the world. It's become a habit to read in various languages too.
However, Malaysians do get different perspectives even if they don't read/watch other languages' news media from friends who will discuss what's on that media etc.
I do hope one day the world will be more open to access the diversity out there. It's currently available online anyway, and just a click away. I think what's holding them back is this belief that they can't trust news sources from a certain politically inclined paper, country etc. I got over that a long time ago and trust my brain to not get brainwashed by the info lol.
I read the piece by Robert Wu, and I read yours now, and from my side, living in “the West” (I am Polish, living in Switzerland) I can only say that people here really do buy into the propaganda - especially since the Ukraine and Gaza conflicts started.
Especially after going to China, I noticed that people have very strong negative opinions on China, they don’t believe me when I say anything positive and they act as if they know it better never having been there. When I say people seem very friendly and genuinely happy - they say it is because ignorance is a bliss and they just don’t have access to information. When I say it is safe and there are almost no homeless people - they say is because the government detains them (I am not sure if US was able to hide all its homeless people even if they tried). When I say that China’s infrastructure and development is amazing, they say that it is over now and they are in crisis (even though China’s growth is still around 4%, and Europe is in stagnation for years, with 0 innovation)
People just so blindly believe that West is best, that no amount of information can spoil that - sometimes I am really afraid that the world is splitting into two in front of our eyes and there is no way to stop it.
Hey I hope you don't feel too bad about what I wrote. I realised I didn't make it clear that I meant the leaders, think tanks and people who believe that "west is best" and the rest of the world should be a democracy at the barrel of a gun - that "West". Of course the West is full of good people too.
It's a bit sad what people are saying about China but I guess sinophobia is not a new thing for them. I think them being Chinese, they'd just shrug and continue improving themselves. In fact all this pressure will only drive them harder to improve. (Being Chinese myself I know the mindset myself and my people have lived under the same pressures.)
I just hope that whatever it is, the world will overcome this rough patch and ditch our tribalistic instincts and really work together one day.
The title lure me in immediately even though I actually did not come in to read at the moment :) Great write up! I love to read this kind of perspective. But disclaimer: I do not read the news, never did actually. When something is big enough or important enough, I will find out anyway from friends and families.
One thing I like to remark on is this - the west is not only America. This is also where I find the problem lies when people start the debate between east and west, generally it means China vs. America, and in your case probably America plus the English-speaking worlds and including some of the Asian neighbors since you are in Malaysia. But I find it too one-sided sometimes.
What about the rest of us? The rest of the west or the east, or what that would even mean since depending where you are, the east and west changes?
Sorry my brain is really not awake right now lol. I don't quite understand your question towards the end.
Yes with the West, I don't mean just the US, of course but the loose bloc currently labelled as the West. Also, that doesn't mean everyone or every country in the West believes the same. Even in Europe some countries don't align with the common narrative espoused by the European Union or the US such as Hungary.
Yeah you're right. I guess whenever I read the arguments both from the Malaysians/China and the Americans, I feel lost in between. When I remark on something regarding someone's view, I sometimes received the comment "you're pro China!" or "you're pro American"! Believe me, I've gotten both of them. That's why I was like, I'm pro nobody and the world is not only America or China! Sorry for my rant. :)
I always tell people I am pro peace. It just so happens that the East is largely "let's not have war" right now, so I may seem pro-Asia. I totally agree with you tho. People want to label people a side, and that gets annoying. Believe me, if the East was warmongering I would not be pro-East!
Sad thing is, neither the PRC nor US trust the world view of your typical Singaporean or Malaysian Chinese. We come across as overly balanced.. too diplomatic.. condescending even
LOL if I say it out loud I would say a large part of Substack would yell at me. Basically, it has a very long history and it Russia didn't just invade for no reason. Russia's red line was Ukraine joining Nato, and apparently at one point the red line was crossed. I don't know 100% of the details but it's certainly not as simple as the black and white picture the Western media has presented.
Nothing ever is, I learned over the years. One has to do one's on research to get the whole picture, rather than the conveniently shaped narrative they present to us.
Still, I don't think Putin is the hero of the global South like some in the alt media tout he is. I'm pretty sure he's a Machiavellian ruthless fellow who is happy to "conveniently remove" his rivals, but he is also a very smart man and effective leader. Effective, not good. In the world of politics, a good hearted politician will be eaten for breakfast, and folks like Xi Jin Ping and Putin is the epitome of Machiavelllian cunning. They won't be where they are if they weren't that.
It’s a troubling time, with great power competition vying for influence and trade relationships. That’s already bad enough. But when the conflict become warm, or hot, with the goal of accumulating territory, and the means become actual armed conflict, the stakes couldn’t be higher
I wrote about it on my other blog before—how they tackled Duterte's "war on drugs" as pretty much a cautionary tale for Americans, with very obvious "at least our country isn't as bad as theirs" undertones. But Trump was already seated, so there was a lot of delusion going on there, wasn't it?
I remember that time. There was so much of hysteria around it, I was very suspicious of the whole thing. What really happened? They made it Duterte sound like a serial killer
Well, Duterte did run under the promise of ending the drug problem once and for all. During his time as mayor of Davao, there were a lot of vigilante killings that were attributed to him and the "Davao Death Squad". Many saw it as decisive action, and thought he should be given a chance.
From my vantage point he definitely empowered the police to go a little bit further. I suppose it was also enabled by the thinking that just arresting "drug personalities" isn't enough since the justice system here is shitty. That said, there was definitely no due process—and a lot of those who were killed were end users, rather than those who are actually involved in the distribution network. There were a lot of dead bodies but no dent was realistically being made.
What I really disagreed with when it came to Western coverage was the implication that most Filipinos agreed with this "policy" and actively supported and cheered on it. Sure, Duterte won more votes than any other presidential candidate in history, but 39% of the voters is not the majority, just a plurality. I didn't like how we were made to look like barbarians who took delight in these senseless murders (although I knew people who certainly felt that way—there is a lot of machismo at play).
Of course, local and regional outlets had more nuance. But I also can't help but see through CNA's "our Singaporean perspective is *the* Asian perspective" thing. A bit annoyed by that, too.
Let's just say most in the media—okay, I just remembered you worked for the media, so I hope I'm not generalizing too much...—talk from the perspective of being somehow better than what they're reporting on.
I stopped watching TV news (left, right, PBS, BBC, you name it) shortly after 2016. I still subscribe to The New York Times and have access to all that’s included in Apple News+, but I mostly just read literary pieces and for for news and most opinion pieces, I just glance at the titles (because I’d already know the content from the tone of the title). I want to say this is sad but I actually feel good about practicing my critical thinking skills! 😊
Great stuff, loved reading your perspective! I realise I'm a little late off the mark on this, but similarly to you, I found Robert's piece so thought provoking I just had to write something about it.
Because I was born and raised in the West, I came at it from a bit of a different angle. Basically as you say in your post, we in the West really suck at not falling for propaganda. But for me the interesting thing is- why is that? Because theoretically, developed liberal democracies should be more immune to propaganda than most other systems.
So I ended up trying to figure out why it is that we in the West seem to be so susceptible to propaganda:
I value your perspective and am glad that you like where you live. Please be assured that many of us here in the US don’t like the way the news is presented either as sensationalistic. Many did not condone the Iraq invasion (huge marches against it)and the vast majority of Americans took Covid seriously and followed precautions. In any country there will be a split of opinions and the government actions will not always represent the broader will of the people. Human nature is varied and yet predictable. There’s a lot of debate here that might not be visible from afar or in those online friends you sadly lost. That said, it seems a true positive that you see the value in where you live rather than ascribing too much hope to somewhere further away. Reading your insights is always interesting!
I hope that I didn't convey the idea that "all" people in the West are like this. Usually I will include a caveat but I forgot this time around. Like I said my brain is melted today and prob not as eloquent as it should be 😅
I guess my sincerest hope with this newsletter is that I can somehow reach out to those caught in the Coliseum and remind them of what's truly important, and to not put their hopes in people who claim to have all the answers. And that the world doesn't have to have bad guys to function, if that makes any sense.
That 100% makes sense! It is your personal ethics that is why I value your insights on the world… and on my increasingly long To Watch links folder haha 💖
And I don’t want to downplay how distressing it is from a Westerners perspective when so many people here in the US do believe the propaganda you mention around vilifying Islam due to post 9/11 propaganda or attacking Asian Americans due to weird beliefs about Covid. That’s incredibly distressing and real. It’s something we have to work on. Our US legacy news sources and local news are being decimated which has me worried that propaganda and false news will travel faster. On the other hand, there seems to be the beginnings of smaller online journalistic ventures, some here on Substack that I am hopeful about. As you point out, obtaining information from a variety of global sources is probably the best option to keep one’s mind open
Yes that's the best we can do now. Heck I even watch Tucker Carlson once in a while. Bracing! 🤣
I usually limit my media news diet to less "shouty", "drama queen" sources. The moment they start labelling people - Nazis, woke whatever, I check out. I listen to the soft voice ones, the ones who don't shout or be all dramatic, who are able to stay measured in the face of rants and ignorant remarks. I tend to also favour South East Asian thinkers because we have grown up with the idea of understanding East and West and also always believing that diplomacy is the best way.
“In Malaysia, we have news channels in English, Malay, Chinese, and Indian. So, we have the perspectives of the West but we also have perspectives from China, India, South-East Asia and the Muslim world.” That’s such a good point. So in other words, we have to decide for ourselves what to think 😂 When I read some western mainstream news outlets, I feel like I’m guided passively to being told what to think (like a teacher asking leading questions to guide the student towards the correct answer) and it makes my thinking so sluggish that I usually just read the headlines and stop there.
Lol tell me about it! And we've learned so early not to trust what the news media was telling us. We learned how to read between the lines and identify propaganda quickly. In a way all that cognitive training has been good for us!
I appreciate hearing your perspective. I was born in the US but in my twenties I had the joy of teaching in China. I have often said that in China people understood that the news consisted of propaganda. In fact, even in our city in China they invited some of us foreign teachers to meet with some officials at a hotel. But they then took pictures and you can imagine our surprise when the newspaper had an article about foreign investors meeting with officials, and our pictures and names were used to promote this false narrative. But we had a good laugh. Most Americans struggle to find trustworthy news sources. Many of us are appalled at the current situation. We have primarily propaganda nowadays in the US media, and it’s tragic. They have succeeded in distracting and polarizing people severely and as you said, they fail to deal with the real issues facing our country and the global community. I am glad you’re writing. I also read Robert Wu’s article. While I see some things differently, his perspective is so needed and valuable. I remember returning home after working in China and seeing my hone country with very different eyes. You made some really valid points. Thanks!
A great (and heartfelt) essay Elizabeth! Being a Chinese American, I am proud and ashamed at the same time, but most of all, sad.
But I am glad I found this essay of yours :).
Yeah, I think it's just human to be sad when you believe that the world needs less war and more peace but the opposite seems to be happening!
Thanks for dropping by!
I commented early and enjoyed the brief convo, but I’m back because my first thought had been to say not to worry too much about everyone in the West’s cognitive abilities around nuance, etc. But since then your point about the benefits of living in a culture where you have a variety of news sources from all over the globe and that Malaysians are generally savvy about journalism vs propaganda, perspectives and bias, etc. as the actual point of the post has been what I’m thinking about. What you are describing ought to be taught in schools in the country I live in (and every country). I’ve heard anecdotally that some do. Had to come back to say that your actual point was not lost!
Oh, thank you! That's reassuring.
I wouldn't say ALL Malaysians are savvy. Echo chambers still exist. For example, the Malays may want to only read Malay papers which has their POV, and the Chinese-educated Chinese will read the Chinese papers etc.
I'm actually a bit of an outlier due to my experience in journalism. I worked at the newsdesk and was one of the paper's world news editors for many years and had access to all wires from around the world. It's become a habit to read in various languages too.
However, Malaysians do get different perspectives even if they don't read/watch other languages' news media from friends who will discuss what's on that media etc.
I do hope one day the world will be more open to access the diversity out there. It's currently available online anyway, and just a click away. I think what's holding them back is this belief that they can't trust news sources from a certain politically inclined paper, country etc. I got over that a long time ago and trust my brain to not get brainwashed by the info lol.
I read the piece by Robert Wu, and I read yours now, and from my side, living in “the West” (I am Polish, living in Switzerland) I can only say that people here really do buy into the propaganda - especially since the Ukraine and Gaza conflicts started.
Especially after going to China, I noticed that people have very strong negative opinions on China, they don’t believe me when I say anything positive and they act as if they know it better never having been there. When I say people seem very friendly and genuinely happy - they say it is because ignorance is a bliss and they just don’t have access to information. When I say it is safe and there are almost no homeless people - they say is because the government detains them (I am not sure if US was able to hide all its homeless people even if they tried). When I say that China’s infrastructure and development is amazing, they say that it is over now and they are in crisis (even though China’s growth is still around 4%, and Europe is in stagnation for years, with 0 innovation)
People just so blindly believe that West is best, that no amount of information can spoil that - sometimes I am really afraid that the world is splitting into two in front of our eyes and there is no way to stop it.
Hey I hope you don't feel too bad about what I wrote. I realised I didn't make it clear that I meant the leaders, think tanks and people who believe that "west is best" and the rest of the world should be a democracy at the barrel of a gun - that "West". Of course the West is full of good people too.
It's a bit sad what people are saying about China but I guess sinophobia is not a new thing for them. I think them being Chinese, they'd just shrug and continue improving themselves. In fact all this pressure will only drive them harder to improve. (Being Chinese myself I know the mindset myself and my people have lived under the same pressures.)
I just hope that whatever it is, the world will overcome this rough patch and ditch our tribalistic instincts and really work together one day.
The title lure me in immediately even though I actually did not come in to read at the moment :) Great write up! I love to read this kind of perspective. But disclaimer: I do not read the news, never did actually. When something is big enough or important enough, I will find out anyway from friends and families.
One thing I like to remark on is this - the west is not only America. This is also where I find the problem lies when people start the debate between east and west, generally it means China vs. America, and in your case probably America plus the English-speaking worlds and including some of the Asian neighbors since you are in Malaysia. But I find it too one-sided sometimes.
What about the rest of us? The rest of the west or the east, or what that would even mean since depending where you are, the east and west changes?
Sorry my brain is really not awake right now lol. I don't quite understand your question towards the end.
Yes with the West, I don't mean just the US, of course but the loose bloc currently labelled as the West. Also, that doesn't mean everyone or every country in the West believes the same. Even in Europe some countries don't align with the common narrative espoused by the European Union or the US such as Hungary.
Yeah you're right. I guess whenever I read the arguments both from the Malaysians/China and the Americans, I feel lost in between. When I remark on something regarding someone's view, I sometimes received the comment "you're pro China!" or "you're pro American"! Believe me, I've gotten both of them. That's why I was like, I'm pro nobody and the world is not only America or China! Sorry for my rant. :)
I always tell people I am pro peace. It just so happens that the East is largely "let's not have war" right now, so I may seem pro-Asia. I totally agree with you tho. People want to label people a side, and that gets annoying. Believe me, if the East was warmongering I would not be pro-East!
Sad thing is, neither the PRC nor US trust the world view of your typical Singaporean or Malaysian Chinese. We come across as overly balanced.. too diplomatic.. condescending even
I think the PRC do welcome our messages more openly, but the US, naaaaaah. They don't even listen to their allies lol.
PRC will listen, nod, and do their own thing. Don't think Malaysian & Singaporean Chinese really care if they do listen!
Really great article. If you don’t mind my asking: what is the sense you have of the conflict in Ukraine?
LOL if I say it out loud I would say a large part of Substack would yell at me. Basically, it has a very long history and it Russia didn't just invade for no reason. Russia's red line was Ukraine joining Nato, and apparently at one point the red line was crossed. I don't know 100% of the details but it's certainly not as simple as the black and white picture the Western media has presented.
Nothing ever is, I learned over the years. One has to do one's on research to get the whole picture, rather than the conveniently shaped narrative they present to us.
Still, I don't think Putin is the hero of the global South like some in the alt media tout he is. I'm pretty sure he's a Machiavellian ruthless fellow who is happy to "conveniently remove" his rivals, but he is also a very smart man and effective leader. Effective, not good. In the world of politics, a good hearted politician will be eaten for breakfast, and folks like Xi Jin Ping and Putin is the epitome of Machiavelllian cunning. They won't be where they are if they weren't that.
It’s a troubling time, with great power competition vying for influence and trade relationships. That’s already bad enough. But when the conflict become warm, or hot, with the goal of accumulating territory, and the means become actual armed conflict, the stakes couldn’t be higher
My only contribution to this is this: I still watch Western media—because I am really fascinated by how they angle things.
Also, we do have nice buildings in the "East" too! :D
I used to be able to watch them, but now i no longer can tolerate their narratives. They just don't bother hiding it anymore!
I wrote about it on my other blog before—how they tackled Duterte's "war on drugs" as pretty much a cautionary tale for Americans, with very obvious "at least our country isn't as bad as theirs" undertones. But Trump was already seated, so there was a lot of delusion going on there, wasn't it?
I remember that time. There was so much of hysteria around it, I was very suspicious of the whole thing. What really happened? They made it Duterte sound like a serial killer
Well, Duterte did run under the promise of ending the drug problem once and for all. During his time as mayor of Davao, there were a lot of vigilante killings that were attributed to him and the "Davao Death Squad". Many saw it as decisive action, and thought he should be given a chance.
From my vantage point he definitely empowered the police to go a little bit further. I suppose it was also enabled by the thinking that just arresting "drug personalities" isn't enough since the justice system here is shitty. That said, there was definitely no due process—and a lot of those who were killed were end users, rather than those who are actually involved in the distribution network. There were a lot of dead bodies but no dent was realistically being made.
What I really disagreed with when it came to Western coverage was the implication that most Filipinos agreed with this "policy" and actively supported and cheered on it. Sure, Duterte won more votes than any other presidential candidate in history, but 39% of the voters is not the majority, just a plurality. I didn't like how we were made to look like barbarians who took delight in these senseless murders (although I knew people who certainly felt that way—there is a lot of machismo at play).
Of course, local and regional outlets had more nuance. But I also can't help but see through CNA's "our Singaporean perspective is *the* Asian perspective" thing. A bit annoyed by that, too.
That really sucks and it's infuriating 😬
I chuckle when the West write about Malaysian politics. Basically to quote Game of Thrones, "They know nothin'"
Let's just say most in the media—okay, I just remembered you worked for the media, so I hope I'm not generalizing too much...—talk from the perspective of being somehow better than what they're reporting on.
I stopped watching TV news (left, right, PBS, BBC, you name it) shortly after 2016. I still subscribe to The New York Times and have access to all that’s included in Apple News+, but I mostly just read literary pieces and for for news and most opinion pieces, I just glance at the titles (because I’d already know the content from the tone of the title). I want to say this is sad but I actually feel good about practicing my critical thinking skills! 😊
I had a dream many years ago where I met my next incarnation because this my last lifetime in The West. I told myself not to be afraid.
Correction: News in Tamil, not Indian 🤦 My brain is truly half dead
Great stuff, loved reading your perspective! I realise I'm a little late off the mark on this, but similarly to you, I found Robert's piece so thought provoking I just had to write something about it.
Because I was born and raised in the West, I came at it from a bit of a different angle. Basically as you say in your post, we in the West really suck at not falling for propaganda. But for me the interesting thing is- why is that? Because theoretically, developed liberal democracies should be more immune to propaganda than most other systems.
So I ended up trying to figure out why it is that we in the West seem to be so susceptible to propaganda:
https://doloresibarruri.substack.com/p/how-is-ideological-monotony-possible
Sorry it's a bit long and rambly, but hope you find it interesting if you get a chance to read!
Reading it tonight!! 😄
Thanks so much! Hope it's interesting
It is long, but very interesting. Hope to formulate a response tonight hehe
Looking forward to it!
And then we get warmongering clowns like these funded by god knows who https://open.substack.com/pub/noahpinion/p/why-trump-or-harris-might-fail-to?selection=26c0cb86-f003-45ef-8ef9-8f05b692badb&r=29h7i&utm_medium=ios
Haha THIS GUY. Robert Wu's best friend 🤣. He wrote a series about him that you should read.
I think you may find my note clarifying my thoughts useful: https://substack.com/@elizabethtai/note/c-63450505?r=ksrb
My mistake was forgetting what I meant by "the West", so I can't blame you for assuming that I meant every country in the West. ✌️