Great points and thanks for putting my muddled thoughts into words.
I understand the concerns about trolls and slurs. That reality is so difficult to centrally manage online. But I am always so taken aback by people’s condescension towards other adults. I read through some of the comments to try and understand where people are coming from. I don’t want anyone to be harassed. But I definitely feel more than capable of kicking people off my Substack if they are a problem. Boom. Solved. I get that it bothers people that hate exists at all. But it does. A block or a mute or content mods won’t stop that. But you get to decide your own boundaries. Who is allowed into your house so to speak, and who isn’t. I hope it stays civil. My group of people on Notes and in my comments are wonderful so far.
I agree with all your points. I think it is such a shame that your civil discussions with a friend who thinks completely differently from you is these days considered something to be remarked upon.
I definitely miss them. But I think there are people out there still having these discussions -just not as publically for fear of, you know, reprisals.
"Lots of people around the world use Substack, and it may shock some of you that not all of us believe the same things. We do not, for the love of God, want to be trapped in yet another American-centric, culture-war-obsessed platform."
As an American immigrant to Japan, I could not agree more.
Nicely written. Good to see thoughts on the subject that aren't entirely ridiculous. :D
Part of the frustration is that it's difficult to even have a conversation about how content moderation can be done better, because as soon as the subject is broached you immediately get two diametrically opposite reactions:
1. The Free Speech At All Costs brigade appear, refusing to even have an open discussion (ironically), because even *debating* it is tantamount to risking totalitarian censorship. Which makes me question their true commitment to free speech, but moving on--
2. People convinced that Substack is going to become 100% Nazi overnight.
I'm very lefty, so my concerns inevitably lean more towards #2, but that's by the by. The answers are extremely difficult to figure out, but not being able to even *talk* about it is really frustrating.
For me, none of this is about trying to restrict respectful conversations. I mean, I don't think I've ever seen that happen on any of these platforms, especially Substack. That's a bit of a strawman fear, I think, that is fed by the weird culture war industry (I hesitated to use that word, but it makes sense. Here in the UK at least, nobody ever really talks about 'culture war'. It's specifically the province of the political/media discourse circus, which blows it massively out of proportion).
The problem is the disrespectful conversations. And, more specifically, when people are actively targeted. The "just block the baddies!" approach works perfectly fine for me, but I'm unlikely to be on the receiving end of direct harassment. That approach really isn't sufficient to protect people who have become active targets.
It does sound like Substack is working on new features to help with that, so we'll see where it ends up.
One encouraging aspect is that Substack, via newsletters and via Notes, is functionally designed to support decent discussion. No silly character limits or rewarding of controversiality. That gives me hope that there might be the potential for progress.
I think groups 1 and 2 are not open to discussions 😆
I ith you tho. We need to talk about it! Now if only 1 and 2 can talk.
But there is also group 3 who believe that there should be moderation but worry that quarters from the far left and right want some discussions stopped. I think the threat of not being able to talk about certain things is very real.
I was literally harassed and suspended because I started asking questions about a hot topic. Despite being respectful about it, I was called names just because I wondered outbloud if mob dynamics was at play.
Guess who did that? The supposed good guys! The was thing was the people who commented on my and they were all courteous, mind , was also harassed and reported. So not all harassment comes from obvious bad actors.
When you dwell in the center like I do you get it from both sides 😅
As a left centrist myself, I’m trying to remember that the extreme on both sides are the minority but with the biggest megaphones. But it’s hard when triggering seems to take almost nothing more than sincere disagreement even done civilly. There are many lying in the weeds waiting to pounce at a word or thought that doesn’t fit their agendas and that’s both extremes and their protectors. Using Woke/Fascist/Nazi shows (beyond simple thinking) a desire to kneecap all conversation. It’s interesting to see supposed liberal college students engage in the same shut down tactics as MAGA fanatics to deny opposing views to be heard. Thanks again for a thoughtful story.
I loved this story. I’m so tired of the culture wars and ready for adult kitchen table discussions again where knives aren’t drawn at a moment’s notice.
Thank you for this. When I recently told some friends that I had joined Substack (switching my newsletter here from Mailchimp) and how much I was enjoying it, I was immediately told by some friends that I shouldn't have joined. Now I can point them to this thoughtful post.
Thanks for recommending it to your friends ;) I think it's just too simplistic to call a platform good or evil. This pursuit for "purity" in things - either in people or the things we use is a futile quest because almost everything we use in life is tainted in some way.
A communication channel will serve its purpose until it doesn't ;)
Great post. I agree with a lot of your thoughts about and hopes for Notes. I love the parts about your conversations with your old friend and being able to hangout and have friendly conversations even though you disagreed on many things.
I've spent some years reading about Buddhism and now consider myself a Buddhist. I love the Dalai Lama's words on ignoring all the things that divide us - nationality, color, political views etc - and focusing on the one thing we all have in common - we're all human beings seeking happiness and trying to avoid suffering.
When you think about it, we're all 99% the same genetically. It's a little odd - Malaysia has lots of racial problems, ngl. But yet .. we manage to exist in harmony. This is something a lot of folks puzzle about. I didn't think much about it until this American couple highlighted it: (min 2:21 and 8:55) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5DKTPkxr50
I don't think we have no racism like this couple says, but I think this is due to the fact that in Malaysia, it is ingrained in us not to talk in a way that incites racial violence. While Americans may think it is censorship, I think of it as an imperfect form of crowd control. I think it has taught us to be quiet when there's a need to and also taught us tolerance.
Just looked up Pageau - he's a breath of fresh air for me. I'm currently trying to find more moderate content so if you know anyone that doesn't partake in ad hominem attacks let me know lol
Well, there's lots of content in his realm lol. Directly on his YT channel. Then his community, https://thesymbolicworld.com/
Even more rabbit holes if you extend to others he talks to, just depends on what is of interest to you. His talk with Hurwitz and another talk with a different collaborator gives a good sense of his latest place
The dehumanization that happens when someone exists outside of our personal politics is not working for us in America. I, too, am so tired of the culture wars here.
So much this: We do not, for the love of God, want to be trapped in yet another American-centric, culture-war-obsessed platform.
That wasn't the reason we left America six years ago, but, man, it is not something I miss having a front row seat to.
I honestly don't know how you guys handle it. If I, a non-American, find it toxic, I can imagine how it must impact you!
Great points and thanks for putting my muddled thoughts into words.
I understand the concerns about trolls and slurs. That reality is so difficult to centrally manage online. But I am always so taken aback by people’s condescension towards other adults. I read through some of the comments to try and understand where people are coming from. I don’t want anyone to be harassed. But I definitely feel more than capable of kicking people off my Substack if they are a problem. Boom. Solved. I get that it bothers people that hate exists at all. But it does. A block or a mute or content mods won’t stop that. But you get to decide your own boundaries. Who is allowed into your house so to speak, and who isn’t. I hope it stays civil. My group of people on Notes and in my comments are wonderful so far.
Good comment.
I agree with all your points. I think it is such a shame that your civil discussions with a friend who thinks completely differently from you is these days considered something to be remarked upon.
I definitely miss them. But I think there are people out there still having these discussions -just not as publically for fear of, you know, reprisals.
Terrible
Very well said! It's so bizarre to me that people are trying to restrict respectful conversations.
Same! I just couldn't keep quiet about it anymore! 😆
Just from an online writing perspective, I love how you wrote the headline and delivered in the content itself.
Great work
Thank you for your kind words. This has been percolating in my head for a week 😅😊
Really like your Substack reporting content. Might be a niche you could dig into. Not much of it that I’ve found within the network
Haha I am far too random to focus on one topic, but I do enjoy writing about it.
Hah. Fair enough!
"Lots of people around the world use Substack, and it may shock some of you that not all of us believe the same things. We do not, for the love of God, want to be trapped in yet another American-centric, culture-war-obsessed platform."
As an American immigrant to Japan, I could not agree more.
Japan must have given you a new perspective. Their thinking is very different in many ways.
Nicely written. Good to see thoughts on the subject that aren't entirely ridiculous. :D
Part of the frustration is that it's difficult to even have a conversation about how content moderation can be done better, because as soon as the subject is broached you immediately get two diametrically opposite reactions:
1. The Free Speech At All Costs brigade appear, refusing to even have an open discussion (ironically), because even *debating* it is tantamount to risking totalitarian censorship. Which makes me question their true commitment to free speech, but moving on--
2. People convinced that Substack is going to become 100% Nazi overnight.
I'm very lefty, so my concerns inevitably lean more towards #2, but that's by the by. The answers are extremely difficult to figure out, but not being able to even *talk* about it is really frustrating.
For me, none of this is about trying to restrict respectful conversations. I mean, I don't think I've ever seen that happen on any of these platforms, especially Substack. That's a bit of a strawman fear, I think, that is fed by the weird culture war industry (I hesitated to use that word, but it makes sense. Here in the UK at least, nobody ever really talks about 'culture war'. It's specifically the province of the political/media discourse circus, which blows it massively out of proportion).
The problem is the disrespectful conversations. And, more specifically, when people are actively targeted. The "just block the baddies!" approach works perfectly fine for me, but I'm unlikely to be on the receiving end of direct harassment. That approach really isn't sufficient to protect people who have become active targets.
It does sound like Substack is working on new features to help with that, so we'll see where it ends up.
One encouraging aspect is that Substack, via newsletters and via Notes, is functionally designed to support decent discussion. No silly character limits or rewarding of controversiality. That gives me hope that there might be the potential for progress.
I think groups 1 and 2 are not open to discussions 😆
I ith you tho. We need to talk about it! Now if only 1 and 2 can talk.
But there is also group 3 who believe that there should be moderation but worry that quarters from the far left and right want some discussions stopped. I think the threat of not being able to talk about certain things is very real.
I was literally harassed and suspended because I started asking questions about a hot topic. Despite being respectful about it, I was called names just because I wondered outbloud if mob dynamics was at play.
Guess who did that? The supposed good guys! The was thing was the people who commented on my and they were all courteous, mind , was also harassed and reported. So not all harassment comes from obvious bad actors.
When you dwell in the center like I do you get it from both sides 😅
Honestly,I don't want that kind of policing here.
As a left centrist myself, I’m trying to remember that the extreme on both sides are the minority but with the biggest megaphones. But it’s hard when triggering seems to take almost nothing more than sincere disagreement even done civilly. There are many lying in the weeds waiting to pounce at a word or thought that doesn’t fit their agendas and that’s both extremes and their protectors. Using Woke/Fascist/Nazi shows (beyond simple thinking) a desire to kneecap all conversation. It’s interesting to see supposed liberal college students engage in the same shut down tactics as MAGA fanatics to deny opposing views to be heard. Thanks again for a thoughtful story.
I loved this story. I’m so tired of the culture wars and ready for adult kitchen table discussions again where knives aren’t drawn at a moment’s notice.
Yeah me too. And I miss news shows that are not masquerading as attack squads for the other team lol
Thank you for this. When I recently told some friends that I had joined Substack (switching my newsletter here from Mailchimp) and how much I was enjoying it, I was immediately told by some friends that I shouldn't have joined. Now I can point them to this thoughtful post.
Thanks for recommending it to your friends ;) I think it's just too simplistic to call a platform good or evil. This pursuit for "purity" in things - either in people or the things we use is a futile quest because almost everything we use in life is tainted in some way.
A communication channel will serve its purpose until it doesn't ;)
Great post. I agree with a lot of your thoughts about and hopes for Notes. I love the parts about your conversations with your old friend and being able to hangout and have friendly conversations even though you disagreed on many things.
I've spent some years reading about Buddhism and now consider myself a Buddhist. I love the Dalai Lama's words on ignoring all the things that divide us - nationality, color, political views etc - and focusing on the one thing we all have in common - we're all human beings seeking happiness and trying to avoid suffering.
When you think about it, we're all 99% the same genetically. It's a little odd - Malaysia has lots of racial problems, ngl. But yet .. we manage to exist in harmony. This is something a lot of folks puzzle about. I didn't think much about it until this American couple highlighted it: (min 2:21 and 8:55) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5DKTPkxr50
I don't think we have no racism like this couple says, but I think this is due to the fact that in Malaysia, it is ingrained in us not to talk in a way that incites racial violence. While Americans may think it is censorship, I think of it as an imperfect form of crowd control. I think it has taught us to be quiet when there's a need to and also taught us tolerance.
Pageau is a great include. Filter into our modern and post modern world
Hurwitz has a similar quote in a later interview with Pageau Re: no one agrees with everything of someone else. Will look it up
Just looked up Pageau - he's a breath of fresh air for me. I'm currently trying to find more moderate content so if you know anyone that doesn't partake in ad hominem attacks let me know lol
Well, there's lots of content in his realm lol. Directly on his YT channel. Then his community, https://thesymbolicworld.com/
Even more rabbit holes if you extend to others he talks to, just depends on what is of interest to you. His talk with Hurwitz and another talk with a different collaborator gives a good sense of his latest place
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR53MJd8VLI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2IgD5cv9Vo
The dehumanization that happens when someone exists outside of our personal politics is not working for us in America. I, too, am so tired of the culture wars here.
Yeah. I think most of the people in America are moderates but the extremists are very loud unfortunately.